Educate and Innovate: Keeping Up with High-Fidelity Training

00:00:03:07 - 00:00:19:16
Chief Webster Marshall
The first thing that you learn good, bad or indifferent, is going to be the thing that you do when you're in a time of emergency. And if we don't take a high fidelity stance, whether it's realistic fires, realistic training, time values, where we're not just moving through the paces to check off boxes, we're backing up.

00:00:23:12 - 00:00:40:25
Battalion Chief Andy Starnes
Welcome back to another episode of Rapid Fire podcast hosted by Fire-Dex. We want to extend a special thank you. Today we have Shane Bentley, William Webb Marshall here, who I've known for a little while. And the blessing of the fire service is that when you travel, you get to meet some pretty amazing people and learn from them.

00:00:41:08 - 00:00:58:14
Battalion Chief Andy Starnes
And I always like to say that each of us is given a piece of the puzzle. But until we put our pieces together, do we see the whole picture? And through gentlemen like these, I've been able to see a little bit better and learn a lot of cool things and have some the opportunity. So without any further ado, I start with Chief Shane Bentley.

00:00:58:24 - 00:01:09:01
Battalion Chief Andy Starnes
Would you introduce yourself, tell everybody a little bit about yourself, where you're at, where you're from, about your family. Give us a two minute overview of who Shane is and what matters to you, sir.

00:01:09:24 - 00:01:35:11
Asst. Fire Chief Shane Bentley
Absolutely. First and foremost, thank you, guys, for having having us on here. We've both been looking forward to this for a while, so thank you again for having us. My name is Shane Bentley, been in the fire service for 20 years within Toccoa, Georgia, which is the small town northeast Georgia. Hour and a half hour, 15 minutes north of Atlanta at five great kids, beautiful wife.

00:01:35:26 - 00:02:01:12
Asst. Fire Chief Shane Bentley
They ranged in ages of 24, that's twins to 18 to 12 and 1 to 6. So we had one graduate kindergarten last week and one graduate high school. So it's very blessed and very lucky to have the friends and family that I have, especially my family. They're very understanding for as much as we do and as much as we participate in the fire service like we do now.

00:02:01:12 - 00:02:30:21
Asst. Fire Chief Shane Bentley
We're City of Cornelia Fire Department, been there for five years. This July will be five years. Originally started as a volunteer in 2002. So after that I work for a department, actually the city of Toccoa, where I live here, change jobs and move to the City of Cornelia. So small departments. Cause about 35 and then a year where we've still got some combination members left, but we're grow.

00:02:30:23 - 00:02:34:10
Asst. Fire Chief Shane Bentley
And I started there. It was a two man shift and now.

00:02:34:10 - 00:02:34:20
Chief Webster Marshall
We're.

00:02:35:02 - 00:02:50:21
Asst. Fire Chief Shane Bentley
Grown to four and five and shifts and continue growing. So I'm just fortunate to be able to continue to be a part of it. We're so fortunate we get to do so. It's just this neat to be able to meet new people and develop new friendships and relationships. Very fortunate.

00:02:52:16 - 00:02:59:27
Battalion Chief Andy Starnes
Thank you, sir. Thank you, Chief. Appreciate that. Not so long ago you got a promotion, Mr. Webb. Marshall, is that correct, Chief? Now, is that correct?

00:03:00:26 - 00:03:01:21
Chief Webster Marshall
No, I'm still Webb.

00:03:01:27 - 00:03:04:07
Battalion Chief Andy Starnes
Yeah, well, I'm at home, but, chief at work, right?

00:03:04:19 - 00:03:22:27
Chief Webster Marshall
Yeah. So I live in Jefferson, Georgia, grew up in South Middle Georgia. I've been in the fire service since early 2000. My wife and my two children, I have a ten year old little boy and a five year old little girl. We live here in northeast Georgia, not too far from Shane. Moved up here for bigger and better things.

00:03:22:27 - 00:03:47:29
Chief Webster Marshall
We thought so when I got hired in my larger department in Gwinnett County, we moved up here from little Georgia. I've been there for a little over ten years in Gwinnett. And Lieutenant and the Unit Fire Department, Station three in Lilburn. I'm the Deputy Chief Fire Department Jackson Trail in Jackson County. Recent promotion, probably a couple months old, but in my big department with thousand folks in my small department, we have 38.

00:03:48:05 - 00:04:16:13
Chief Webster Marshall
There's a lot of things that transcend both. The only differences one has more people and more money, and the other one has less people and less money. But the problems, the solutions, the people, the families, all the important things are still the same. Your circle of influence is a circle of influence and a lot of what I've been privy to in my life from my parents and the people that I've been exposed to, just like, you know, strange sort of echoes, it's important that what I've learned gets pushed on to other folks and help them.

00:04:16:13 - 00:04:34:26
Chief Webster Marshall
And my background is a direct correlation to what my mother and father have helped me to become my father specialty, using the fire service still in the fire service and a big web or web senior, everybody calls him. He's much larger than I am. I got the short end of the stick on the eighth. He's six six. I'm 510.

00:04:34:26 - 00:04:51:18
Chief Webster Marshall
So little difference. But that's how I got into the fire service. The family and the fire service and the family home. That can be one and the same. Looking forward to getting a little bit deeper into what I and what Shane have been lucky enough to be involved with and how we've expanded the circles and expanded our families.

00:04:52:01 - 00:05:10:08
Battalion Chief Andy Starnes
Well said. Thank you, gentlemen! Let's roll right into it. Both of you are very, very active in lots of things and I appreciate the overview for our audience to may or may not know who we are yet, but hopefully by the end of this they'll they'll know us just like we know each other. So we're going to start off with something that both of you are passionate about.

00:05:10:08 - 00:05:41:25
Battalion Chief Andy Starnes
So we'll tag team this conversation and talk about high fidelity firefighter training or as Chief Bentley said, you know, realistic firefighter training. Why is that important? What are you two doing in that area? Because I know, but our audience does know. Why is that important? First, that we a have realistic high fidelity firefighter training and give us your your both your synopsis of that and then tell us a little bit about how both of you are uniquely involved in that and how that's contributing or giving back web.

00:05:41:25 - 00:05:46:06
Battalion Chief Andy Starnes
You tell me about your role in that area, and I know you'll both will kind of go back and forth.

00:05:46:16 - 00:06:09:29
Chief Webster Marshall
With a lot of what we do in the fire service, especially early in our careers. We get into training and it's either the way we've always done it or it is something where we've got to just meet the standard and we'll get realistic later on. In my opinion and in my experience, it's been more helpful to create more high fidelity situations, to create better learning.

00:06:09:29 - 00:06:29:03
Chief Webster Marshall
You know, when you think about the adult learners and how we take people in from a lifetime of education or a lifetime of behaviors and patterns, and we expect them to mold right into our system unless we engage their entire mind and we also engage their entire body, we're never going to meet that. We're always going to be failing at that point.

00:06:29:03 - 00:06:56:12
Chief Webster Marshall
And the high fidelity side can mean a lot of things. It can mean more realistic based on what your department runs. Fire training can be more realistic. Stress management drills it can be more realistic hands on training where we're not just doing it slow by the pace as we had time values, it could be adding high technology. And recently I've gotten into a little bit more of technology based solutions, trying to find out what's the next best thing that's going to engage the mind.

00:06:56:12 - 00:07:24:03
Chief Webster Marshall
More so when we go to combat, we give them all the ammunition they could have to make a better decision, make a better act, and create better create better points to remember. Because the first thing that you learn good, bad or indifferent, is going to be the thing that you do when you're in a time of emergency. And if we don't take a high fidelity stance, whether it's realistic fires realistic training, time values, where we're not just moving through the paces to check off boxes, we're backing up.

00:07:24:12 - 00:07:46:14
Chief Webster Marshall
And my purview to this is the more high fidelity, the more difficult it is for the instructor to make it realistic. Probably the better result you're going to get for your end users. My dad told me a long time ago, if you're not busy as a training officer and that's busy preparing, busy researching, busy, busy in general, you're not doing good training, not running in training division.

00:07:46:21 - 00:08:07:00
Chief Webster Marshall
And there's a lot that can be said from that. But the high fidelity side, if we're asking someone to put be put into the most dynamic, difficult situation they could be life or death. But we never do anything but run of the mill dry simple by the book, you know by the book training. We haven't prepared them properly in.

00:08:07:00 - 00:08:31:07
Chief Webster Marshall
And then what really should we expect them to be able to do based off of that background? There's a lot to be said from the research that you can read about the fire service and the crossover between combat training, realistic training, training for pilots in the armed forces, training for pilots in civilian world. All of these things, the due diligence and the research that goes into this, this is where we need to be and this is where we try to stay.

00:08:31:17 - 00:08:53:16
Chief Webster Marshall
We try to stay on the leading edge of this. We try to stay with what's going to engage the the person, you know, the incumbent in the training, more so when we ask them to be put into a difficult situation where we can't control variables, that they can make the right decision for the right reasons in a split second, not asking them to take time to think about that, but they need to make a decision in split, right.

00:08:53:26 - 00:09:09:27
Chief Webster Marshall
And sometimes in better than a perfect decision. Done is better than perfect sometimes. But the high fidelity gets you closer to perfection where we may never reach it, but it still bridges that gap a lot more than some of what the general population may call run of the mill.

00:09:11:04 - 00:09:43:11
Battalion Chief Andy Starnes
Well said. In our great podcast we had with Citizens First Fire Training with Chris Kessinger is an awesome guy. Talk about realistic fire training and one of the things that I enjoyed when we talked about that was we went beyond the textbook and we've said it before that if you're relying on your fire department to give you all the skills, then you're going to come up short because fire departments have restrictions, they have time and money and then all these different things that come into play and they have too many things they have to train you on as a bare minimum what we call certification versus qualification.

00:09:43:20 - 00:10:07:24
Battalion Chief Andy Starnes
When you said dynamic situations, we can't keep training firefighters to do an individual skill set with no stress and no real challenges. And as you said, expect them to perform well in those realistic situations. So I believe in a crawl, walk, run methodology in the way we teach. We wrap it up. Some friends of mine, Rob Lowe, said he teaches a great Morgan called Performance Under Pressure.

00:10:07:28 - 00:10:32:13
Battalion Chief Andy Starnes
Same type of concept. The chief that I talk about for your perspective, you're involved in recruit training. You're involved in conference training, different things. How that's important you what does it mean? What are you doing in that area and and that share with our audience maybe some tips tricks things that you're doing to help firefighters hone that skill since we've defined it, let's talk about what are we going to do about it and what are you doing about it to help guys and gals?

00:10:32:13 - 00:10:36:07
Battalion Chief Andy Starnes
Because I know a lot about what you're doing, but tell our listeners what you're doing about it.

00:10:37:16 - 00:11:03:11
Asst. Fire Chief Shane Bentley
Well, the Web said it's the high fidelity side of it. Is that really when you ask when you're asking a group of guys, doesn't matter what size fire department that they work at a volunteer at your firefighters. Right. So I think for me, I got hooked on it right out of the gate. So when it came time to become the get your basic training and get certified for a long period of time, that was the thought process.

00:11:03:11 - 00:11:26:14
Asst. Fire Chief Shane Bentley
Right? And then it took several years to be able to take and say, whoa, there's really more to this. There's a lot more education other than just becoming certified fire, warning fire, too, and just checking the boxes, obtaining certain certifications and whether where I was working or not, I was always having conversations after I left the class. What more always beating it up, you know, going, what will what if you done this with it?

00:11:26:14 - 00:11:42:19
Asst. Fire Chief Shane Bentley
What if you done this with it? What if you done this? And then you get to that level? When you start working on your instructor one and you're your instructor certificate lessons and you start meeting people and taking classes with people, then you start realizing you're starting to see a lot of the same people at same times in these classes.

00:11:42:19 - 00:11:59:05
Asst. Fire Chief Shane Bentley
You know, periods during the year. And then as you spend more time with them, you start talking about your department versus their department and how they do things and how we do things. And it doesn't matter if it was basic training level at your department or the classes you were going to take. It's like the common theme was we always wanted more.

00:11:59:21 - 00:12:30:29
Asst. Fire Chief Shane Bentley
How is that real? How realistic is it? So we're really I got the courage and the confidence to start stepping outside the box a little bit was because of people like Webb Senior Webb's dad. He's very institutional in the discipline and how important training is and how important fire service is and how much respect it deserves and when you realize and what you're responsible for as a firefighter, whether you're at work or away from work, and how you represent your department in the in the people that you're serving.

00:12:30:29 - 00:13:01:21
Asst. Fire Chief Shane Bentley
So what we started doing, I wasn't okay with the level of training that was happening and not never being progressive and advancing the training, it just saying, well, this is where we've done it for this long room. Just keep doing it year after year the same way and classes aren't being revamped or advancing. And so as started getting more educated and learning about mentors, reports, line of duty deaths several years later in my career, it really started paying attention and understanding.

00:13:01:21 - 00:13:21:11
Asst. Fire Chief Shane Bentley
That was really the catalyst that I realized there was. There's a lot more to this other than just the basic checkmarks. And lucky enough, I've had the benefit to have and meet some really good friends and really good people over the last the last 20 years. And anybody that I was intrigued by, I always stayed in touch with.

00:13:22:00 - 00:13:46:01
Asst. Fire Chief Shane Bentley
And I have no shame in saying that every one of these guys that come and help us, whether it's whether it's Don Sapp or I mean, all these guys and they very institutional in my career and my thinking and people say sometimes push the envelope or go too far, being too aggressive. And I think that can be true if you don't take and train correctly on that.

00:13:46:18 - 00:14:14:01
Asst. Fire Chief Shane Bentley
And so before you take can go out and start having these so-called realistic fire classes or hosting these events, you and the people that's doing this got a vest and buy into it as well and trained together in putting these classes together long before you go out and advertising on one of the classes we do worship is literally the scenarios are based off knowledge reports, line of duty deaths and it kind of came from that pulling up to your mutual aid or automatic aid department.

00:14:14:16 - 00:14:42:05
Asst. Fire Chief Shane Bentley
And there's a young man or young lady on this chart that just graduated EMT school. They're by themself and they're watching a house burn. And it just really irritated me that they're standing there. They don't know what to do. The one person on fire engine and that's not their fault. We're failing them. The Fire Service Fire Department is still on them because we're giving them that basic certification and sending them to work on fire and then even been trained to properly to take, invest and drive and operate.

00:14:42:05 - 00:15:05:09
Asst. Fire Chief Shane Bentley
And so I kind of got irritated about some things and we started putting classes together based off realistic reports of line of duty deaths, what we could do to take and simulate close to that but prevent that from happening, which is turned in to where we're at today with the bears of the oath and all of the guy involved in it, man, as if it wasn't for them.

00:15:05:10 - 00:15:33:13
Asst. Fire Chief Shane Bentley
It would be what it's what it is. And but all of those guys, they're all like minded, they're all aggressive, but they've all put the time and effort into helping us make this and be dynamic with it. People don't realize how careful we really are in it and how much thought and process and training and sitting around collaborating how to do things to create it as real as it can be, to make it a success and be that aggressiveness that people need.

00:15:34:18 - 00:15:58:08
Asst. Fire Chief Shane Bentley
How do you get the success out of it? We're no different than anybody else here. Any of the training that's out there. It's just how we treat each other and treat. We treat students and instructors. Everybody treats everybody the same. We've never had anybody leave with the failure to see the win when they're done and they've never done something like that and they're so proud of their self, or they come back and tell you, Hey man, you guys rejuvenated my career.

00:15:58:08 - 00:16:18:12
Asst. Fire Chief Shane Bentley
You guys will be a better father and a husband. You know, those are the wins. But that's what we continue to strive to do, is to be as realistic as possible and to create these classes that we do this investment. You know as well as anybody else, you cannot just go out, host class and be successful. You don't have the proper people involved with it to make it what it is.

00:16:18:12 - 00:16:37:06
Asst. Fire Chief Shane Bentley
And there's a lot of knowledge and experience that I think today the fire service is not giving back to the the new five year guy, this, you know, 1 to 5 years that maybe their departments don't support the type of training that it is that we do. But if we can get them there, they always go back and bring somebody back with them.

00:16:37:12 - 00:16:56:09
Asst. Fire Chief Shane Bentley
Encourages people when they know that they're going to come to a training, whether they pay for it or the department pays for it, and they're not browbeat to death or they're not taking screened that hollowed out the whole time. And we actually spend time, get dirty with them and show them exactly how to do it because that way they build confidence and work for the training more.

00:16:57:17 - 00:17:15:18
Battalion Chief Andy Starnes
I want to highlight a few points that you mentioned that tie in. Well, with what Webb's already shared to is you said I see the same people, different classes, different conferences. So those of you are listening who might be fighting the battles that the chief talked about, maybe the training is not available. Maybe your department's struggling with staffing and whatnot.

00:17:15:28 - 00:17:36:20
Battalion Chief Andy Starnes
What you're finding is, is that the as my dad says, there's 13.6% of the fire service are the change agents. Don't ask me how he got that number. He's a statistic or statistician guy, not me. But basically he believes there's a small percentage, just like in any organization that are the change agents. Those are the ones out learning and growing.

00:17:36:20 - 00:18:01:26
Battalion Chief Andy Starnes
And the thing that he said about wanting more, there's a lot of people like that and they're out there doing it and they're trying to enhance their skills, improve their skills, whether it's leadership with firefighting, with basic fundamental skills all the way up to the levels that these two gentlemen are at. But what I want you to think about is Chief and both of you had asked this question and will lead into your recruit school concept.

00:18:01:26 - 00:18:34:03
Battalion Chief Andy Starnes
We talk about that you mentioned, Chief, is that we want to be aggressive, right? Well, I don't think the majority of firefighters have a problem being aggressive, but I think the problem we have is what you said is we are failing them. If we tell them just to be aggressive and then charge into a situation without the skills, without the knowledge and without the information they need to make decisions, as Webb said earlier, in a dynamic situation with challenges all around them, you know, it's not a smooth concrete burn building.

00:18:34:03 - 00:18:52:16
Battalion Chief Andy Starnes
It's not about whether they're being aggressive. It's whether we're preparing them to be intelligently aggressive and be a critically thinking firefighter who has skills but can modify those skills. I can force a door, but then you put me in a narrow hallway where I don't have the ability to lean out and use that leverage of that halogen bar.

00:18:52:17 - 00:19:17:03
Battalion Chief Andy Starnes
That's a little different, right. So let's talk about your recruit school. And I know you're involved in some training with Shane in a lot of aspects. So when we talk about an ordinary recruits, what defines preparing recruits beyond the textbook and beyond what the basic certification stuff tells us we have to do? What defines it? What are you guys doing in that area to give them a little extra?

00:19:17:03 - 00:19:34:07
Battalion Chief Andy Starnes
You could give me some examples of I'm doing fire attack scenario. If I'm doing a search, what are some things that you're doing that are beyond the textbook, beyond the minimal, the certification that are helping these guys and gals prepare for that moment you described where those two firefighters showed up in the ambulance and didn't know what to do.

00:19:34:07 - 00:20:03:05
Asst. Fire Chief Shane Bentley
We extended the recruit school from originally that eight weeks to 16 weeks. And what we've done is we've allowed them to take every every week or every two days has a certain thing. And it just so drill into the right town to where two of them got to come to Dalton and, you know, to see their to be able to spend the time with people like Todd Shepherd and learn about prevention of forced entry and through the lock, respectable thread.

00:20:03:24 - 00:20:20:07
Asst. Fire Chief Shane Bentley
And then take classes, take classes within sight fire training. Man, that's huge. I mean, you can you imagine and this is why I call it an ordinary is for years you know you used to have to take in basically get your certifications and you you're the low man you had to take him and wait your time to go take these certain classes.

00:20:20:07 - 00:20:43:24
Asst. Fire Chief Shane Bentley
And I don't feel like we have time to wait and do that anymore. And fire service, not as young as these guys are. With the retirement improvement the way it is right now, you can't replace experience. And so therefore, we have to take and last in my opinion, we have to take and start giving them experience as soon as we can in week one to now they've experienced every week some kind of conference, different training outside.

00:20:44:10 - 00:21:16:06
Asst. Fire Chief Shane Bentley
We spent a whole week last week just nothing but search and rescue from dry runs to log fire for three days afterwards, then just conditioning them in their minds to where they don't have to experience that mental process and delay in it to give them the physical challenge we have to give them the physical conditioning and this unique with the ones we have now, we have four guys that are extremely different, but it's like I told them on day one, they there's one rule you applied here.

00:21:16:06 - 00:21:39:18
Asst. Fire Chief Shane Bentley
We didn't come looking for you. We needed you. Don't get me wrong. We need you. But you applied here. So the rule is you show up early every day, which is not on time early. It's old timers like and you will carry and represent the United States of America's colors in your station colors and two flags. And you'll be here every morning at 630 and we will go to we're done every day with that.

00:21:39:18 - 00:21:54:00
Asst. Fire Chief Shane Bentley
They start out, put dress in every morning. They're still doing it. And what's fun is put your drills every morning because that's where it starts. I mean, long before you get on the engine, you got to know how to operate and you got to understand your gear, your PPE, got to understand every bit of you got to be able to function in it.

00:21:54:09 - 00:22:11:00
Asst. Fire Chief Shane Bentley
You got to understand your impact. And that's what I told them. I said, you got three main tools that will make you successful other than yourself in your mind. And that's your air pack, your turnout gear in that fire truck. So every day they start out quit dressing. Every day. And I know that's not that's not very ordinary.

00:22:11:00 - 00:22:37:21
Asst. Fire Chief Shane Bentley
But what it's done is it's built a relationship, a camaraderie with them. And we've watched develop from day one to today for yesterday, they're all betting each other. Who's buying lunch or who can do it the fastest? And everyone else, down to a minute. 3 seconds now. Breathing air. One you're taking and giving them hands on skills from other people, but you're also posing them to other departments, the scout recruits and classes going on, and you're building your relationships with them.

00:22:37:21 - 00:22:59:29
Asst. Fire Chief Shane Bentley
And I, I truly fail to be able to comprehend and be good at this job, especially in the little man staff department, where you have to do a lot of different things. You have to understand and be able to do all of it. And without your body and demand being strong, it's you're in a losing battle. So the conditioning since day one where they couldn't even run a half mile now they're up to four miles.

00:22:59:29 - 00:23:26:25
Asst. Fire Chief Shane Bentley
And we hiked Tennessee to mountain the other day and you're breathing air all the way to the top. And, you know, they wanted to quit halfway. But you said manipulate them. And I know manipulation sometimes sounds like a bad word, but it's not at this for a positive outcome. And to watch them realize when they get to the top that they accomplished something like that, the mental strength that they get from it in educating them for bringing people like Blake in to talk to them, we're talking to them.

00:23:26:25 - 00:23:51:18
Asst. Fire Chief Shane Bentley
Raymond Doable. Trying to paint internally all these names. The saps are spending time with them every week. They're getting that every week from all of these people and they're showing them that, hey, look, this is the expectation of what it is we have to do. We're going to be the best we can be at it. And I just think that we're robbing the new members right now by not taking in, allowing them that experience as soon as they get in the fire service.

00:23:51:18 - 00:24:03:26
Asst. Fire Chief Shane Bentley
There's no reason we should be making them wait three or four or five years. Somebody else moves up or retires before they get started. It did start experiencing these things. So to me it's I feel like I saw it diligence not exposed to do.

00:24:04:24 - 00:24:24:24
Battalion Chief Andy Starnes
I like how you said you had three main tools your air pack, your PPE and the fire truck brother. Well, why don't you educate us? A what are you doing in the world of PPE? Why is that important? And I'm going to ask you a question to start it all and all the things we got to be trained on and educated on our.

00:24:24:24 - 00:24:48:13
Battalion Chief Andy Starnes
Well, do you think the average firefighter is educated? Not on how to put on their PPE, but how their PPE works, how it can help them, how it can protect them, and what all they have to do to maintain that. And you leave me down that path of how you got into it. What are you doing? And I know you're doing some pretty cool stuff, but I'd like the firefighters to hear about three things, Chief.

00:24:48:13 - 00:24:57:23
Battalion Chief Andy Starnes
Mainly talk about why PPE is important and what education do firefighters need. That's currently not an emphasis, in my opinion. So help us out with that.

00:24:59:09 - 00:25:17:10
Chief Webster Marshall
So when you and I were discussing this, Fierro think I told you then that at large we do a very poor job of educating about what we wear. And my personal opinion is, and I feel very strongly about this, I pulled no punches with this. The thing that you control the most is the thing that, you know, the least amount.

00:25:17:10 - 00:25:35:11
Chief Webster Marshall
And I say that in this respect, no one is going to help you put your protective clothing on. No one is going to make you be diligent about it every single morning when you go to work or when you put it on beside the vehicle or at a volunteer station, no one is going to hold your hand while you do all this.

00:25:35:12 - 00:25:57:00
Chief Webster Marshall
No one's going to make sure that it's ready to go. No one's going to make sure when you put it on that every little piece was done just like you'd be in a testing event. But you. And if I walked into my fire station and it's something I'm trying to change, but if I walked into my power station and asked some of these questions to my guys, some of the guys need more help.

00:25:57:00 - 00:26:17:16
Chief Webster Marshall
But it's not because we're not working. It's because in the past they've been deprived of a larger education. If I asked a lot of guys in station saying, What's your nozzle flow? Hey, how's your hose work? Hey, tell me about those arms in the back of the engine bay. What about your extrication tools? All the fun stuff, the really sexy, exciting things.

00:26:17:16 - 00:26:46:15
Chief Webster Marshall
Everybody can answer these questions. They're really good at it. They've become subject matter experts in the glamor and the glitz and the hardcore part of our job. But what may seem mundane is the thing that will kill you. The earliest air parts, protective clothing. How good is anybody in their protective clothing? Not everyone, but I would say a large majority of us aren't that good in it because we don't practice in it.

00:26:46:20 - 00:27:07:24
Chief Webster Marshall
Do we put it on to do some of our drills? Sure. Do we know a lot about it to be more efficient in it? I doubt it. Could we be better? Yes. I recently learned how to rap address again because of some new boots that I'm trying out. And guess what? I was super slow to get started, but because I learned to do it better, I'm faster than what I was before.

00:27:08:04 - 00:27:39:00
Chief Webster Marshall
Probably because I haven't practiced rapid dress in a while. Just do it when I go to work because I want something different. And in the world of PPE, I try to stay really involved. I was lucky enough to get a pretty good start. The town that I grew up in had a textile background. We had a textile mill there, and eventually, by happenstance, at a forklift fire, I met a man that ran a company that made a different type of fire, resistive cotton, and he was making a knot at the beginning of the process.

00:27:39:00 - 00:28:03:27
Chief Webster Marshall
But at the end he took t shirts or pants or whatever. You had completely made and changed them into AFR where it wouldn't go away. It was there for the life of the product to change the cells for the market. And I added things to the molecular structure of the cotton, which was really cool. I kind of got excited about it, got more into it, learned a little bit more about where he used to work at Milliken for a long time.

00:28:03:27 - 00:28:31:19
Chief Webster Marshall
He was a very, very smart man for Milliken overseas, and Paul taught me a lot about this and kind of got me into this since then, after I met the the Firefighter Cancer Foundation, they said, Hey, you seem excited, go run and do things. So I did met a lot of people, got into gear processes with my department in Gwinnett County, made a lot of friends at different mills and labs and whatnot because that's sort of where all this starts.

00:28:31:19 - 00:28:55:10
Chief Webster Marshall
If I can't relate what they have to what we have, you know, we're we're still missing the boat in the middle. And we're finally lucky enough to be accepted to a principal membership of the NFPA 1971 and NFPA 1851, which dictates everything about our protective clothing and structural firefighting. It's allowed me to learn even more and to hopefully have more of a voice for an end user.

00:28:55:10 - 00:29:24:02
Chief Webster Marshall
I'm an end user. My families are end users. Everyone on this podcast, we're in users, and the effort and the knowledge that I've been able to amass is going to be different than that of your regular run of the mill firefighter at a station anywhere, unless they're involved in the processes that I'm involved in. But that doesn't mean that we can't pass it on and hopefully instill the passion, because if I asked you about your bunker gear and you don't know much about it, what is your motivation?

00:29:24:02 - 00:29:42:02
Chief Webster Marshall
Is your motivation because I say you might go to the burn unit or say that it'll kill you or all the fire and brimstone things that we bring up in any class that you ever set in. When you try to make it sound really crazy and you want to motivate them to do something different, or do I ask you, can you play with your daughter from the burn unit?

00:29:43:19 - 00:30:06:18
Chief Webster Marshall
Can you walk with your wife on the beach if you've been hurt because you didn't wear your gear properly, if you didn't clean it and God forbid someone gets occupational disease like cancer, possibly from the chemicals that you didn't manage because you didn't manage your bunker gear properly. What are you what am I going to tell your parents when we have to put you in a box on the ground?

00:30:08:06 - 00:30:30:02
Chief Webster Marshall
What is the conversation that we would have with our neighbors instead of going fishing that they have to come to our funeral? That to me, it's not necessarily going to be at work. But what about our family? This is the big thing for us. Shane and I are very adamant about this. We are very strong about the training that we do, the education and the background and the passion in the fire service.

00:30:30:02 - 00:30:57:17
Chief Webster Marshall
But the people are the most important aspect of anything that we do. If you don't have someone that is totally invested in the craft that they are involved with, firefighting included, are they really after it for the right reasons or all of the right reasons? There are more important things than going to work and fighting a fire. That's some dangerous verbiage to throw out there, but I'll do it anyway.

00:30:58:27 - 00:31:31:26
Chief Webster Marshall
Is it also important that you stay in the frame of mind and the physical prowess to come and play with Legos on the floor with your children? To me, the protective clothing conversation starts there and ends there. Everything in the middle. If I don't know about my protective clothing, if I'm not completely involved in that, as much as I'm involved with the compounding forces of the Halligan Bar or the Gallon Edge or the expandable bowl of a of an engine three quarters hose or the pumping capabilities of the new engine that comes out because they're exciting.

00:31:31:26 - 00:31:55:24
Chief Webster Marshall
It's hardcore firefighter stuff, but so is looking after yourself because the piece that's the most important piece is not the technology, the widgets, all the other things that have been involved and built on the fire service. It's you. And what protects you is the clothes you put on your back straight from your uniform out. We have a long way to go with what we do in the fire service, but there is a lot of resources available that could be tapped into.

00:31:56:11 - 00:32:11:04
Chief Webster Marshall
I offer my opinions and background and resources and contacts to anyone. We do the same thing. We drive the same message. It bears the oath. I drive the same message when I go to work. Sometimes my guys get sick of hearing it, but I hope they get sick of hearing it and then go home and have dinner with their wife.

00:32:11:09 - 00:32:32:10
Chief Webster Marshall
Eventually, the circle of influence will expand to others, and maybe they're saying some of the same things if it inspires just one or two people to go look and learn more about it and hopefully it protects them. I was in Forsyth County, Georgia, helping their fire department today get started on a gear project that they're working on. And we had the same conversation for the same reasons.

00:32:32:19 - 00:32:54:11
Chief Webster Marshall
They're spending money making efforts and had me invited me up become speak with their guys today to try to do something better for their people because their chiefs care about their people. I care about their people. I don't even know half of them. But, you know, they have families and that's important. If there's anything we can do to protect each other with our protective clothing or your air pack or any of the things that you wear and nobody else does for you.

00:32:54:28 - 00:33:04:15
Chief Webster Marshall
I've got a Pope Armani that pumps the engine when I go inside with my firefighter, nobody dressed me to go to the fire, though. If I don't know the most about it, I'm not going to be out of work in they.

00:33:04:15 - 00:33:06:05
Battalion Chief Andy Starnes
Minute, sir. I love it and I.

00:33:06:06 - 00:33:06:26
Asst. Fire Chief Shane Bentley
Absolutely love that.

00:33:06:26 - 00:33:08:13
Battalion Chief Andy Starnes
Chief, please do this.

00:33:08:13 - 00:33:30:19
Asst. Fire Chief Shane Bentley
After what he was just talking about. About the clothes that we put on our back. And this goes back to the an ordinary recruit school. One of the things we did last we do relations with other fire departments is obtaining a lot of gear out of service gear. And what we did last week was myself and Captain Painter, they've got two sets of gear they got there, said that they're going to be on duty.

00:33:30:22 - 00:33:56:21
Asst. Fire Chief Shane Bentley
And they also got to set from Sandy Springs Fire Department where they donated gear last year, of course, but people don't realize the materials advance and change every year, leaving out the aspect how much more expensive they get every year but the materials from where they were 27 to now. The difference in saturation and reflection and retention of the gear in the most bare saturations is so different from what we did.

00:33:57:00 - 00:34:29:27
Asst. Fire Chief Shane Bentley
We put them in the city in their service gear, had them change that afternoon, went back in same settings, the same thing, but put them in the older gear and didn't even tell them to let them come out and explain to us the differences that they felt versus 50 year old gear versus today's gear and then I was able to have the educational talk with them about gear through my time in selling gear and what web has taught me over the last several years and and able to teach them.

00:34:29:27 - 00:34:46:09
Asst. Fire Chief Shane Bentley
Why? Because it's just as important to be able to put it on and to understand what you're putting on and the materials that you're wearing. And the difference between then and now was this was so much better versus this one. And that was kind of one of those things that we made and we keep adding to our bucket list for the summer when they recruit school.

00:34:46:21 - 00:35:11:15
Asst. Fire Chief Shane Bentley
Is the taken make sure that these are the things that you need to educate your recruits on from day one and understanding because this is what's going to protect them just like their pack if they can't take and understand how their pack works and how it functions, the gear is the same way, but the limitations from it and the reason we do that is because we want them to be involved in growth in the fire department and then become a part of these communities and sticking to gear.

00:35:12:00 - 00:35:40:11
Asst. Fire Chief Shane Bentley
And so because of Webb and his education and sitting down with all of us able to do that last weekend been it created a four hour conversation after class that even those guys and just and they were just like sponges writing it down in the journals then they come back in and start asking more questions, more questions. But then they go home or they get on the phone and they start reading and Googling steadfast powder Gourd, and then they start going, Oh, man, I didn't know there was a buy in.

00:35:40:11 - 00:35:49:04
Asst. Fire Chief Shane Bentley
And you get them to see that, and then you get them thinking about it, but they have to experience it. That's the whole thing with this experience that we're not passing down the fire service that we should.

00:35:49:26 - 00:36:09:09
Battalion Chief Andy Starnes
I'd like to add a couple points where you said something about you are very passionate about it. You make no apologies or excuses for it, and I applaud you for that because personally I want to say this, that there are a few people in the country right now passionately carrying messages about information that is not either well known.

00:36:10:03 - 00:36:36:07
Battalion Chief Andy Starnes
Yes, anecdotal. This shared incorrectly they stories firefighters share something because they were told that and the better we can educate our firefighters along with their skills, the better off they'll be and they'll have a longer career and hopefully more time at home like you were talking about where they have families. My passion is, is that we need to educate along with innovate.

00:36:36:07 - 00:36:53:14
Battalion Chief Andy Starnes
As David Eskew taught me from Milliken, he said, you need both. But I think of World War Two that told me this and tell me if this rings true. He said, Son, never go cheat on anything between you and the ground. He said, You shoes your tires, you break your bed. He said, It's those are cheap. You're going to hurt some way.

00:36:54:13 - 00:37:17:21
Battalion Chief Andy Starnes
And the thing I want you to think about when chain is that we need to understand what's between you and the danger, the fire truck, your PPE and your SCBA. Those are between you and the danger. And if you don't understand them, you don't properly respect them and you don't know what the limitations are, how they work, how they help you, and how, if you're not careful, how they can hurt you.

00:37:18:03 - 00:37:36:20
Battalion Chief Andy Starnes
In the end, we shorten our service to the citizen. We shorten our career, and we shorten our time with our families. So I applaud you for doing that. So this is a good segue way for us to transition into firefighter health and wellness, because you've been passionately talking about realistic fire training and how we're preparing the next generation.

00:37:36:20 - 00:38:00:06
Battalion Chief Andy Starnes
You passionately pour into what's between us and the danger and how we need to educate them. But the main thing that I believe that is left out and is now becoming, I think, not more popular, but at least more education wise is firefighter health and wellness. That person underneath that turn out gear, are they physically capable? Are they, you know, being conditioned and trained?

00:38:00:06 - 00:38:21:01
Battalion Chief Andy Starnes
And are we taking care of their mental health, their emotions, all of those things? What are you guys into regarding helping firefighters with health and wellness, physical, mental, emotional, spiritual, whatever you're into, that's helping firefighter share a little bit more information about how you guys are working to help share that knowledge, help firefighters and improve that area.

00:38:21:09 - 00:38:45:09
Asst. Fire Chief Shane Bentley
People don't realize how influential you can be for somebody in the family. And people have to realize, yeah, the fire service and firefighters, they've always had this mentality that we don't talk, we don't you know, we are what we are in the system. If we if we do talk about it, it's very limited. We do a really good job of when something happens, one of our brothers or sisters pass.

00:38:46:00 - 00:39:19:20
Asst. Fire Chief Shane Bentley
We all come together. We dress up in our finest and we all show up. We're really good about taking care of each other. Really crappy job of taking and following up and taking care of the people are left behind and put me on where very emotionally it's spend a lot of time saying you know we got to we got to fix this and with trends like like snap Denali, I mean, you find out that there's a lot of people out there that truly and really do care and brand is the key is like this for me is it's okay to care about each other.

00:39:20:02 - 00:39:48:17
Asst. Fire Chief Shane Bentley
All right? We can be far and we can be the best firemen in the world, but I won't be honest with you. If you're in this job, in this career for any length of time, you're going to experience some kind of traumatic outcome. And then when you lose somebody that you close to a work with due to either a health related issue, whether it came from the fire service or they took their life or a line of duty, or it's just the family is how well do we really know and emphasize how much we care about each other and the families?

00:39:48:17 - 00:40:06:09
Asst. Fire Chief Shane Bentley
And that's always really bothered me is I remember going to Frankie Martinez's and when I came home, I put my class a uniform back in bag and I said, I'm not wearing it again. I'm tired of doing this. I'm tired of going to these funerals and wearing. This is not the reason that this uniform was made. Yes, it is part of it.

00:40:06:09 - 00:40:38:17
Asst. Fire Chief Shane Bentley
But I'm tired of wearing this nice class, a uniform, something I couldn't wait to get when I was younger. No telling where it is when it's a time of loss. And so I got I kind of started despising the tradition of my uniform, a class A uniform, and it wasn't till recent that I put it back on for the first time in a long time, and I was excited about wearing it because I was able to get up and talk about the things that we're discussing right now and people listening to it and the fear and the terror that they have of dealing and talking about these things.

00:40:39:10 - 00:40:55:06
Asst. Fire Chief Shane Bentley
That has got to be the common goal to get people comfortable and understanding, Hey, we can't fix this, we can't help with this. We can lower these numbers. People's got to understand it's okay to care about each other. I feel like brotherhood and leadership are the two main words in the fire service that are really abused. You're in a position of leadership.

00:40:55:07 - 00:41:15:10
Asst. Fire Chief Shane Bentley
You're not only got to care about the people that you work with, but is adamant and should be very influential that you they know that you care about their families. And the reason you're asking them to do the things that you're asking them to do, to train, to become educated and to take care of yourself and give them the help they need when they need help is for their families, not just themselves.

00:41:15:10 - 00:41:34:24
Asst. Fire Chief Shane Bentley
Because the families, like we've said, are you going to walk with your wife down the beach if you're not here? And it's there's a lot of people out there that's doing this, and I feel like this will chip away at that. BLUNT But honestly, if you really want to know the truth, this is the most important thing that's happening and should be happening in the fire service right now.

00:41:34:24 - 00:41:56:13
Asst. Fire Chief Shane Bentley
And that's that's why we spent so much time with this recruit class, conditioning them. So I can tell everybody everybody talks about large muscles, right? You got to have large muscles to support your core, but your biggest large muscle is your brain. So people are just not comfortable talking. But you know what? They might not be comfortable talking, but as long as they know that they got somebody that you care about them, to me that's what matters.

00:41:56:13 - 00:41:59:28
Asst. Fire Chief Shane Bentley
And that's why I say all the time, it's okay to care about each other. Well.

00:42:01:07 - 00:42:24:00
Chief Webster Marshall
Absolutely. I, I completely agree with that. I was lucky enough to meet contacts that my father had grown up in the fire service. I was a little kid bobbling around with him, following him around, getting to meet some of the minds of the of the United States Fire Service and listening to some very high level minds throw in their ideas out there about bettering the fire service.

00:42:24:02 - 00:42:43:28
Chief Webster Marshall
And most of my life, I was lucky enough to meet some folks at the Firefighter Cancer Foundation that have allowed us to really dove into this wholeheartedly. The mental aspect of this and the physical, physical aspect of this, they're all they're all fingers of a bigger piece. And if we don't balance all of this, I'm as guilty as anybody.

00:42:43:29 - 00:43:03:16
Chief Webster Marshall
I spend too much time on the fire service and not enough focus in on home sometimes and let the things that I care about and I'm passionate about it at work, eat away at me and do a poor job of it. But I've realized that there are ways to reach out and handle some of that and help don't bear all that on your own shoulders.

00:43:03:16 - 00:43:27:10
Chief Webster Marshall
But physically, are you working out? I mean, a captain in my department going out told me a long time ago, he said he said, you know, web, you know, people shouldn't expect to be in great shape if they only work out eight times a month when they're at work. And he said, it seems like that's all they do, like, oh, I got to get a workout in, but are they doing anything at home?

00:43:27:10 - 00:43:57:12
Chief Webster Marshall
What's their kitchen table look like? Are they eating a bunch of junk food? Have they balanced all of this equation to a bunch of different, you know, aspects of hydration and good nutrition? Are they seeing a doctor, good lord, you know, oversees? There's been a lot of different studies that shown overseas and early determination of long term health incidents has prevented mortality and limit lowered mortality rates and lowered long term health costs.

00:43:57:26 - 00:44:19:13
Chief Webster Marshall
Here, America, I wait until I feel bad. And then. Then what do you do? Personally, I didn't see a doctor much earlier in my far career and start to learn about this. And now I do every single time that there's a, you know, a sniffle or something that hurts. But getting regular checkups, looking out for parts of the physical that can help you.

00:44:19:22 - 00:44:42:01
Chief Webster Marshall
You know that the International Association of Fire Chiefs put out the the first responder firefighter physical affidavit and give it to your doctor. Let you know. Let it let them find out. It's not that star is super easy to find and I gave it to my doctor. He says, I know this. So I talked to him and some of the some of the other doctors he works with, they says they didn't know it either.

00:44:42:10 - 00:45:01:06
Chief Webster Marshall
That's a cool. Well, let's work on that education piece and try to talk a little bit more about it. I do a separate cancer blood marker blood test every year. You know, some departments are into firefighter, firefighter based physicals. If we're not, again, it because it's going to come back, education and motivation. But there's a lot of things out there.

00:45:01:06 - 00:45:22:06
Chief Webster Marshall
And, you know, take FDIC, for example, largest show in the United States, lot of resources. It's a lot of untapped resources, I think, because a lot of the glitz and glam people may pass by something that's really important or may not have the time because it's such a large show to grab. But when we when I go there, it's all worth trying to find.

00:45:22:06 - 00:45:43:04
Chief Webster Marshall
The next coolest thing, trying to find the next thing that's going to help folks back home because not everybody can make it to Indy. With me, we're going to do a lot of research on a lot of resources, talk to other people, expand the circle influence. I was lucky enough to make a new contact with Kenny Fant, who's working on the National Firefighter Registry with CDC, and Josh and Kenny and his team.

00:45:43:04 - 00:46:13:06
Chief Webster Marshall
Man, they're good as gold. Anything you need their help you out. And that's the same thing to say for the folks in Miami that are working on the cancer research project. You know, here in Georgia, I was unhappy with the representation of data based on the southeastern United States. So luckily I was allowed the opportunity through the Department of Public Health, the role in Research Institute in Emory University and Georgia Firefighter Standards and Training Council, that they got a linkage study, which we're still working on.

00:46:13:21 - 00:46:36:21
Chief Webster Marshall
And I've been going for a year or so now, a little bit more than a year, and gathering data on the Georgia Fire Service, specifically, we took the list of firefighters that we have here in Georgia and have cross-linked them with the cancer registry that Georgia holds, the Department of Public Health and Emory University. Sadly, obviously, we found some cancers.

00:46:36:21 - 00:46:57:06
Chief Webster Marshall
They're not all the run of the mill cancers. And some of the numbers that we're seeing so far on the early analysis is that these are some things that shouldn't happen in the sheer numbers that we have them. The goal is to have more background information, more ammunition for education, for folks to buy into this more is it only going to be for cancer?

00:46:57:06 - 00:47:26:21
Chief Webster Marshall
Now, what we've been able to do based on this registry is add firefighter as an occupation. Because of our registry in Georgia for for the firefighters, through our standard counsel to an occupation list where it was before not able because we weren't able to find that out because of meeting of validation. So we've had of that they're there they're working on adding that to the mortality registry as well to see if any of this other data links together.

00:47:26:27 - 00:47:52:05
Chief Webster Marshall
It's kind of sad to think about these things and it's kind of a depressing piece of information to have to wade through. But this will help with legislation. This will help with education. This will help with motivation. I hope to be more involved in the total health and wellness. If you want to go back and look at even something outside of that, let's let's take what Shane brought up about Blakes the net next wrong stress management, you know, suicide.

00:47:52:05 - 00:48:15:18
Chief Webster Marshall
You know, this is an ever growing problem in the fire service. It's been a problem in the military. There are very few people gathering information about this. The behavioral alliance is a really good resource for this. But if we can link some of these things back, put a better spotlight on some of the issues, make them more mainstream.

00:48:16:15 - 00:48:44:07
Chief Webster Marshall
This is not mainstream conversation and it should be. It shouldn't be the thing that we talk about with training. It should be the talk, what we talk about for training. There's a lot of motivation behind this. And I have cancer issues on both sides, my mom's side of my father's side of the family. So I just want to make sure that I look after myself because my family relies on me and my friends rely on me just like the other, you know, the others in the fire service.

00:48:44:07 - 00:49:03:11
Chief Webster Marshall
And it's important, you know, when we think about health and wellness, it's it's not just when you get sick, it's everything leading up to that. And what kind of lifestyle do we have? Because everybody everybody says it's for them. It's for them. It's for them. It is for them. Everything we do is for I 100% agree. But who is them?

00:49:03:11 - 00:49:26:19
Chief Webster Marshall
Is them just the people that are in the fire? Or can we add for them to my daughter and my son? Boy, it hurts to think that I couldn't be here for them one day, but if I bust my butt at work and I say I am for them when I'm at work, I am for them, I will bust my tail and put my crew in harm's way to the highest level.

00:49:26:19 - 00:49:41:21
Chief Webster Marshall
Our training will allow to go save someone's life. They can't do it for themselves. But I will also be as diligent and passionate to do that for the people at home, because they also deserve it.

00:49:41:21 - 00:50:10:17
Battalion Chief Andy Starnes
Absolutely. Amazing. Awesome. You hear that? I will bust my butt and put my crew to the utmost risk within our training for them, but I will pour the same passion into my family. I want you to hear that. Okay. Because the problem we have as firefighters is we are really good at giving our life away to the badge, to the patch, to the calling or for whatever it is we call it this week.

00:50:10:17 - 00:50:30:10
Battalion Chief Andy Starnes
But gentlemen and ladies and all those listening, the greatest hypocrisy that we have is that if we will throw our lives into the fire for someone we never met, but we won't give our family an ounce of that time and then sacrifice them and lose them in divorce or not know our children. We're not who we say we are.

00:50:31:09 - 00:50:51:27
Battalion Chief Andy Starnes
So the struggle is the word balance. It's very difficult. But as he said, I can be the same guy at home as I am at work. And that's a values thing. And that's that's title in full circle. It's about being aggressive, just as aggressive being a husband and dad as you are as a captain or chief or whatever role firefighter.

00:50:51:27 - 00:51:09:15
Battalion Chief Andy Starnes
You have to be aggressive in all those things. But when you're home, be home, right? Turn off the phone, you have to answer that email right away. You don't have to. You know, my phone never stops going off, but my wife and I have to set boundaries for that stuff, you know, because of that. Don't it'll all me, right?

00:51:10:03 - 00:51:32:16
Battalion Chief Andy Starnes
Everybody wants to debate things. We want to argue about topics, fine. About debating, but that shouldn't taking the time about you being a better dad, husband, firefighter, whatever role your given, what these gentlemen are trying to share with you is you going to be aggressive. Be aggressive in your education. Be aggressive in your skill set, be aggressive in your knowledge and understanding.

00:51:32:21 - 00:51:49:24
Battalion Chief Andy Starnes
Don't just know how to do something, know why, and then pour that same amount of training and time investment into your family. Because I did this the other guy with a day with a gentleman, I asked him, I said, I want you to make a list. I want to put on the left side for fire department and write all the books and classes you've taken.

00:51:50:20 - 00:52:14:03
Battalion Chief Andy Starnes
And then on the right, I want you to put for them my family, and I want you to write down how many books, how many classes have you taken to be a better husband, better dad? The list was very short, so you can see the cost. So if we're going to talk about firefighter health and wellness and why are suicide rates so high and why all these things happen is because we are the problem.

00:52:15:09 - 00:52:37:11
Battalion Chief Andy Starnes
We give it away and we nothing back. You can't write checks out of an empty bank account. Knowledge and understanding are key. But we got to understand that, Chief Shane G. G. Webb here, Lieutenant, where we're going to both do the same thing I'm going to do one day. They're going to take the badge off. They're going to retire, but they don't retire from being a good person or servant.

00:52:37:19 - 00:52:54:11
Battalion Chief Andy Starnes
But you don't want to retire and realize no one's there to go home to. Okay, so full circle here, gentlemen. All the topics we talked about, I'm going to leave you with my favorite quote. And I want you to summarize this for me, my favorite quote lately. I would have to say that because my quotes changed a lot.

00:52:54:28 - 00:53:17:04
Battalion Chief Andy Starnes
The work is too heavy for you. You cannot carry it alone, okay? We cannot carry the burden that's placed on your heart to do better, to serve others, to be a better dad, wife, husband, mom, whatever you're called to do, you need good people in your life influencing and sharing you. That's what Shane and Webb said from the very beginning.

00:53:17:04 - 00:53:37:04
Battalion Chief Andy Starnes
I've met all these people. We're the same people, different classes, different conferences. They're helping me. And they're not just helping me be a better firefighter to be a better dad. But whatever you got to have wise counsel, you've got to have people around you, okay? And we need to take all of the things that good people are doing and learn from them, not argue with them and put them down like we love to do on social media.

00:53:37:23 - 00:54:06:06
Battalion Chief Andy Starnes
That's the other side of the fire service. What is? My daughter just watched the movie. Ralph breaks the Internet and he says he's doing all the YouTube stuff and he starts reading the comments and he gets depressed. And the lady says, First rule, the internet never read the comments. So yeah, so don't get don't get discouraged people not understanding what you're doing or, you know, you only got so many letters in your email or tweet or quote to explain it, have candid conversations about and help people understand them.

00:54:06:09 - 00:54:30:18
Battalion Chief Andy Starnes
It's a lot of times it's just a clarification issue that we don't understand someone's viewpoint. But I want Chief Shane and Chief Webb here to share with us a little bit as they close. If you were still a firefighter, a new firefighter, what's one thing that would help them in these areas? We talked about firefighter training, understanding the three parts.

00:54:30:18 - 00:54:42:10
Battalion Chief Andy Starnes
You said the most important fire truck there are CPA and firefighter health and wellness with one piece of advice that's going to stick with them. What would you tell that one young, impressionable firefighter about these topics?

00:54:42:10 - 00:55:08:19
Chief Webster Marshall
One thing I ask questions and challenge the status quo. There's a lot of abilities, there's a lot of technology, there's a lot of motivation in the fire service. I always tell my students when I teach in front of recruits especially, so don't take me for, you know, the gospel not happen whether I'm teaching fire behavior or whatever it might be.

00:55:09:22 - 00:55:52:20
Chief Webster Marshall
Ask your other people, validate what I just told you, that it's the legitimate that it's true. And if you can do that constantly and remain that you will continue to change where the bar lies. Don't trip over it. Always try to try to reach for it. You can never achieve perfection, but you could have perfect effort knocks and and it's I think that effort is the biggest thing that falls away over time.

00:55:53:12 - 00:56:02:03
Chief Webster Marshall
We get comfortable and we may wane away from the effort that we used to put in to whatever it is.

00:56:03:01 - 00:56:25:12
Battalion Chief Andy Starnes
So yeah, I like it a lot. I think that the other thing I would add to your statement is question yourself, question your assumptions, question your own beliefs. I'm constantly looking at something and say, Do I truly understand this? Especially if I get a question from someone. And so maybe I'm not explaining it well, maybe I don't fully understand it.

00:56:25:12 - 00:56:29:18
Battalion Chief Andy Starnes
Right. It's good stuff. Shane, what would you like to hear? That one thing.

00:56:31:12 - 00:56:58:00
Asst. Fire Chief Shane Bentley
Everything. To reiterate what Webb said is I agree with couldn't agree with the military anymore. When they come as a brand new firefighter, one hug their neck, tell them thank you, because I never thought I would see the day that the fire service you could start out making as much money as you do now and that there's so many positions, so many available spots open in the fire service.

00:56:59:05 - 00:57:20:15
Asst. Fire Chief Shane Bentley
And that's good and bad because the upside to it is we're having trouble filling those spots in our fire departments. And so when they come up and they won't come to work there, meet them at the door, hug their neck and tell them everything good and what you will do for them and learn as much as you can about them.

00:57:20:15 - 00:57:50:17
Asst. Fire Chief Shane Bentley
Ask them about their families, ask about where they get to know them, get to where they trust you. And if they start trusting you, you've got to care for them unconditionally. But don't never take advantage of them. Give them a pin in a pat from day one. So every night I had a lieutenant, which is now the assistant chief where I started every night he was always the last one down and they would sit in the locker room and he put his pen and pad out and he'd write down.

00:57:50:17 - 00:58:11:21
Asst. Fire Chief Shane Bentley
Some days it would be a page and a half. It didn't matter. But he wrote something down every day that was good, something that we needed to work on. Because if you work with the same guys for a period of years, you're going to go through the first batch of this with them. And through his documentation, he taught me to do the same thing.

00:58:11:21 - 00:58:35:14
Asst. Fire Chief Shane Bentley
Let me read several pages that were about me, and from the time I read the first page to the time I read the last page and watch myself grow, then I really understood why he'd done what he done. Not really understood how much he really cared about everybody. And then the families and give them a pen and a paper, an A notebook, and explain to them how important it is to write this story down.

00:58:36:08 - 00:58:55:05
Asst. Fire Chief Shane Bentley
Never be afraid to ask questions. Do not ever agree to disagree. People say that that's okay and it is. If you take and sit down and invest time in the guy or the lady that you're talking to and understand why she doesn't or he doesn't agree with you, give them that. Ask them what's why do we disagree on this?

00:58:55:13 - 00:59:17:17
Asst. Fire Chief Shane Bentley
We want a family that is most people, once they actually sit and start talking about why they disagree, their goal was common. It's just coming from two different ways and our egos and our arrogance as humans takes and we get defensive about it because somebody else doesn't agree with me or that I don't agree with them. I don't know why I want to know, because what I've learned from that is our views aren't that different.

00:59:17:17 - 00:59:42:00
Asst. Fire Chief Shane Bentley
It's just how we get there. So when I say it's okay to disagree, it's all okay to disagree. If you sit down and then you take in, you put forth the effort into understanding why somebody disagrees with you or why you disagree with them. But you have to be kind. You have to be nice, you have to talk to get them because it takes when you ask somebody to be reasonable from day one, you have to be vulnerable to then.

00:59:43:04 - 01:00:06:16
Asst. Fire Chief Shane Bentley
This job is full of so much opportunity, is full of so much heartbreak, it's full of so much greatness. But, you know what? That pen and pad and a notebook is? It might be what actually saves or helps somebody later on, because some people. So I should like to say I should like my my biggest college story. You know, it's kind of like the FBI is just like college search.

01:00:07:08 - 01:00:28:28
Asst. Fire Chief Shane Bentley
All of that matters. And But you truly you truly have to care about the people that are coming into your department. And our job is to take and train them to where if they ever get an opportunity to leave, they're going somewhere to make it, you know, make that department wherever they're going better. It's not to for them to jump fences, but if they do leave, it means we've done a good job of preparing them, that they're going to make a difference somewhere else.

01:00:28:28 - 01:00:55:23
Asst. Fire Chief Shane Bentley
And I truly think we can do that and we do do that. I just think that, you know, the fire, I guess we'll still be here when we're all going to be here. Yeah, it's going to be here. So you're really working on borrowed time, whether it's 15, 20 or 25, 30 years, then you know it is okay to care about each other and it's okay to welcome them into your department and teach them and care for them and explain to them and invest.

01:00:55:23 - 01:01:14:06
Asst. Fire Chief Shane Bentley
But a lot of people don't do because they're afraid of their own self or their own inner demons because they're not good at sharing what's going on with them either. We have to be better at that. So to me it's simply just truly caring about each other and to the point where they believe you and they trust you.

01:01:14:10 - 01:01:29:20
Asst. Fire Chief Shane Bentley
And then so therefore we have to hold each other accountable. So it's like I tell all of our guys, Hey, if I'm at the long branch has nothing to do with it. Tonto has nothing to do with it. If I'm not alone, I don't care if you're the brand new guy or the captain. I'm out of line for me to the side and straighten out.

01:01:30:21 - 01:01:46:27
Asst. Fire Chief Shane Bentley
Get me back where I need to be. Remind me, because that's that's a lot of the problem is everybody uses the word accountability, but we don't hold each other to it a lot of times. And sometimes, you know, you can't just go to a class once, twice a year and hear somebody talk and they get your wheels turning and go, oh, I want to do better.

01:01:48:09 - 01:02:12:20
Asst. Fire Chief Shane Bentley
Be axiomatic. You have to do it. You have to be around axiomatic people, and that's just how it works. And you have to surround yourself in the environments that you want to be in. Then I would one last thing I will tell and I tell all of our guys is it doesn't matter if there's 50 people in the fire department or 500, invest the time and be honest with yourself and get to know them.

01:02:13:05 - 01:02:42:29
Asst. Fire Chief Shane Bentley
The people that you look up to, the people that are mentoring, you get to know everybody. Ones that are a little different or might not be on the same page. Get to know them too. It might just be that that's some of the people that influence you might not be the ones that need to be influencing. And I think that's the triple effect of fire services is new firefighters come in and follow up under the methodology of, hey, we got to earn your way, which is I get that and I'm okay with that.

01:02:43:09 - 01:03:03:02
Asst. Fire Chief Shane Bentley
But for them to earn their way, you have to buy in and invest in them as well. And so to me, it's just it's really falls back into caring about each other and preventing each other from you can help people make prevent them from making mistakes, you know, especially through your own mistakes. You have to be you have to you have to be willing to be honest about that.

01:03:03:09 - 01:03:22:20
Asst. Fire Chief Shane Bentley
But you have to be willing to take and explain to them not just that you've done something, what led up to you doing that? And that sometimes will open the door for them, for them to providing you and say, hey, this is what's going on. And it might just be the fact that you change their mindset, but what they're going to do or what they're thinking about doing just because you were vulnerable with them.

01:03:23:00 - 01:03:24:20
Asst. Fire Chief Shane Bentley
And but you can't do it and not mean it.

01:03:26:18 - 01:03:45:10
Battalion Chief Andy Starnes
Well, sir, gentlemen, thank you for your time today. Important thing we have. We can't make more of it. So I appreciate your time and sharing. I'm sure a lot of people would like to reach out to you and talk about this stuff more from what you're doing, chatting with Bearers with you and what both and what Webb's doing with firefighter cancer and the things he's trying to share with people.

01:03:45:18 - 01:04:07:20
Battalion Chief Andy Starnes
And you guys are a wealth of information and can contact and connect people to other resources, so I'm sure they want to learn more about that. Something that may be super easy for you to find may not be super easy for someone else. So continue to share that. And we appreciate that. We appreciate fire for allowing us to have the platform to share this information and we look forward to the next one.

01:04:07:20 - 01:04:29:17
Battalion Chief Andy Starnes
Please share this podcast with others as these gentlemen share their time and expertice and knowledge and most important, their passion with you. And hopefully it will encourage you to charge your batteries and hold ourselves accountable to the mission which is our family and serving the public. So hopefully we will continue on that path. And and, you know, it's okay if you hit a bump in the road.

01:04:30:01 - 01:04:56:04
Battalion Chief Andy Starnes
Just remember, we cannot do this alone. We have to help each other, whether it's knowledge, skills, understanding, support, behavioral health, any of those things we've got to do better at doing what the fire service has done from the very beginning, which is serve the public through a team. So let's serve each other as a team effort, like you said in the beginning chain about, you know, we got to do a better job of checking on those that are left out or left behind.

01:04:56:21 - 01:05:14:18
Battalion Chief Andy Starnes
Don't leave anybody behind. So thank you for your time. And we look forward to seeing you soon and seeing what you two get into in the future. I really think both of you are going to big places and I love to watch those those careers grow and what God puts on your heart and your calling and see what happens.

01:05:14:18 - 01:05:15:11
Battalion Chief Andy Starnes
So thank you again.

01:05:16:12 - 01:05:17:17
Chief Webster Marshall
Thank you very much for your time today.

01:05:19:01 - 01:05:21:25
Asst. Fire Chief Shane Bentley
Thank you guys very much.

01:05:21:25 - 01:05:40:28
Battalion Chief Andy Starnes
Thank you for joining us on this episode of Rapid Fire. If you enjoyed today's topic and want to learn more, head over to firedex.com/rapidfire and as a token of our appreciation to all of you tuning in, we offer 10% off our e-store when you use coupon code, RAPIDFIRE, all caps at firedex.com/shop.

01:05:40:28 - 01:05:44:25
Battalion Chief Andy Starnes
Tune in next time as we continue our efforts to make firefighting a little bit safer.